In this thought-provoking episode, Ryan Goulart welcomes psychologist, coach, and well-being researcher Zorana Ivcevic Pringle, Senior Research Scientist at Yale School of Medicine to explore the connection between emotional intelligence and creativity. Zorana also discusses how self-awareness, and values-based decision making shape personal and professional transformation. Drawing from her extensive experience, Zorana discusses how leaders and individuals alike can harness emotional awareness to foster creativity, growth, and meaningful change.
Zorana also talks about the importance of curiosity, reflection, and alignment in cultivating well-being both in and outside of work. The conversation highlights how embracing discomfort, connecting to purpose, and practicing emotional regulation can lead to more authentic leadership and deeper human connection in today’s complex world.
The Science of Everyday Creativity
Dr. Ivcevic Pringle opens the conversation by demystifying creativity. While many associate it with the arts or innovation, she highlights how everyday creativity—how we express ourselves, solve problems, and adapt plays a vital role in personal fulfillment. Her research shows that creativity isn’t just a talent; it’s a way of engaging with the world that can be nurtured across contexts.
Emotions as Creative Fuel
A key theme throughout the discussion is the role of emotion in creativity. Zorana shares how emotions not only spark inspiration but also shape how we think and what we value. Drawing from her research, she emphasizes the importance of emotional self-awareness and expression in both personal and professional development.
Identity and Authentic Self-Expression
Zorana explores how our creative choices reflect our identity what we care about, how we want to be seen, and what gives our lives meaning. From personal style to storytelling, these forms of expression are not just aesthetic; they’re psychological. “When people engage in creative work that aligns with who they are,” she explains, “they report higher well-being and life satisfaction.”
Workplace Culture, Emotional Intelligence, and Creativity
In the workplace, Zorana advocates for environments that foster psychological safety, curiosity, and openness to diverse perspectives. She discusses the role of emotional intelligence in leadership and how it supports innovation, collaboration, and a healthier organizational culture.
Transcript
Ryan Goulart (00:00.0)
I have with me today Dr. Zorana Pringle Ivcevic from Yale University. Zorana, welcome to Making the Ideal Real.
Zorana (00:12.654)
Thank you for having me, Ryan.
Ryan Goulart (00:14.319)
Now, of course. Today, we’re gonna be talking about creativity, and I love how you frame things. We’re gonna get into all of that, all of those creative choices that we’ve always made or haven’t made. But first, our listeners know where we’re going with this. Zorano, what does making the ideal real mean to you?
Zorana (00:40.928)
I love this question. What making ideal real for me means is taking your ideas. Even the word idea has that ideal part to it. It is something we imagine. It is something that has shape in our mind. It is ideal and so many meanings of the word.
Zorana (01:05.056)
And then we make it real by building it, by developing it, by making it into performances, into products, into things that are tangible in the world.
Ryan Goulart (01:18.105)
This is, right. I am very excited for this conversation. This conversation actually was born out of a conversation that you and I had at a conference. And it was about, you know, getting to know someone new. I learned a little bit about you, how you got to where you are today. So I guess like the first question I have for you based off of your answer to that is.
Ryan Goulart (01:44.303)
You know, you’re an expert in creativity. You’ve studied creativity. You have learned about creativity. And from what I remember from our conversation, it was really something that first started, this curiosity about creativity first started in your native country of Croatia and interacting with your family. Tell us a little bit about why creativity, why spend some time focusing on this aspect of humanity.
Zorana (02:13.826)
Well, I always was interested in interesting people. And I was always interested in people who are doing something different. I can remember for as long as I can remember, really, being attracted to when people do something different.
Zorana (02:37.87)
I distinctly remember being in first grade and their teacher allowing us to do whatever we wanted in art class. And it turned out that 23 of the 24 students did exactly the same thing. And one, my best friend did something totally different. And I am not even sure that the word creativity was in my vocabulary at the time.
Zorana (03:06.414)
but I wanted whatever she had. And it just made me think of what is it that made her do something different? And I kept coming back to this question and oftentimes seeing people have ideas, but then not do anything with them, leaving them in their head, leaving them as a topic of conversation. You sit.
Zorana (03:33.896)
at cafe, I am from a Mediterranean country and there’s lots of sitting in cafes in the culture. You sit in a cafe, you discuss your ideas very passionately with your friends and then nothing happens with them. And I was, I kept coming back to this. And as I started doing science,
Zorana (04:01.462)
I came to this question from the scientific sense.
Ryan Goulart (04:40.45)
of like what made you, and the part that got cut off was you were mentioning like people on the cafe, at the cafe people are debating passionate ideas. So if you can kind of like roll the tape back in your head of that, that’s where we’ll leave off. So I’ll count you down and then if you don’t mind just kind of picking up from right there, that’ll be great. Does that work for you? Okay.
Zorana (05:08.5)
Okay.
Ryan Goulart (05:10.092)
Cool.
Zorana (05:10.158)
Yeah.
Ryan Goulart (05:11.747)
right. Five, four, three.
Zorana (05:18.098)
So I noticed a lot of people sitting in cafes passionately debating their ideas, but I didn’t see as many people really do something with them, develop them and create something, make that ideal real that we are talking about. And as I became a scientist, I really wanted to focus on.
Ryan Goulart (05:44.256)
Yeah, and it’s, it is such a, even as you mentioned that I’m thinking about all of the ideas I’ve had throughout my, throughout my lifetime. I’m sure you get the same reaction when you talk to other people about, because it is something, creativity and having ideas and thinking about whether or not I want to pursue them is a human, a human condition. And yet we have examples that we can hold up of like,
Ryan Goulart (06:14.57)
especially here in the United States of like Thomas Edison and, you know, Steve Jobs and all of these creative minds. yet, and what I love about how you define it is that it doesn’t seem like this thing that is just a gift for the few. It is actually a choice that we make every day.
Ryan Goulart (06:41.868)
to pursue the things that we’re pursuing. So if you don’t mind just sharing with the audience, why is creativity a choice? And then we can get into some of the other components of it where it’s something that we have to deal with every day. So why do you think creativity is a choice?
Zorana (07:02.43)
Yeah, I love that you brought up that we have oftentimes the first association to the word creativity. Those famous people, eminent creators, Thomas Edison, Nikola Tesla, Steve Jobs, every artist that you can name.
Zorana (07:21.404)
And they are undeniably creative. It’s not to say that they are not. It’s to say that they are not the only ones who are creative or have potential to do so. And when I talk about creativity as a choice and making a set of choices, really, it is that when we are facing something that is open-ended, that has potential for
Zorana (07:50.526)
different solutions, different ways it can go. We have to decide which route we are going to take. The one that is safer, the one that is more conventional but less risky, that does not hold very much potential for doing something truly original or approaching being original, but that may not be criticized that very much.
Zorana (08:20.008)
or something that is riskier and something that is less conventional but has that potential of making a different kind of contribution, unconventional contribution, being original yet effective in some way, what we call creative.
Ryan Goulart (08:40.576)
Yeah, and it’s, and I’m thinking about a few people in my life that will attest and they’ll listen to this and be like, Ryan, you were thinking of me. That’s true. But one of the things that I’ve often heard, and at least in some of the people that I’ve interacted with, like, Ryan, I’m not creative. but I think that is like, because I think it’s such an important thing to our conversation today.
Zorana (08:52.615)
Thank
Zorana (09:02.624)
Hmm.
Ryan Goulart (09:10.28)
is that, you know, would it perhaps be that they’re comparing themselves to those artists, to those influencers, and attesting that that potential, that word potential is really important, I think, into our conversation. Maybe they’re just, they’re not feeling like that is something that they can do and therefore don’t pursue. you know, through your research, through your book, what…
Zorana (09:33.887)
Yeah.
Ryan Goulart (09:40.012)
What kind of, those people that say, I’m not creative, Zorana, how do you address that?
Zorana (09:47.264)
I think it’s a really interesting question that people oftentimes don’t use the word. And even people who objectively are creative, if you look at what they do, are not oftentimes using the word. And there are several reasons and you are touching on them. One is,
Zorana (10:10.068)
that oftentimes in our culture, we are reserving the word creativity for so-called creatives. We even have that noun. It feels that the noun is new in circulation, but actually it’s been more than a hundred years in circulation. But it is…
Zorana (10:33.17)
It seems to be reserved for people in so-called creative industries, in the arts, in design, maybe in advertising. And if you have that idea that that is creativity and you happen to be an engineer or you happen to be a business leader, maybe you don’t go to that word. Maybe you look for other words. And another reason is that you also hinted at
Zorana (11:02.206)
the idea of confidence. We do and we attach labels to ourselves about those things that we believe we can do. because how our culture talks about creativity in terms of those Steve Jobses and Coco Chanel’s and know, Claude Monet’s,
Ryan Goulart (11:30.423)
Mm-hmm.
Zorana (11:31.582)
We know we are not that. I am not that in the world of science. You are probably not that in the world of podcasting. And it’s it’s not the only models out there. And if you only have the models of those culture changing earth shattering people,
Ryan Goulart (11:42.21)
Yeah
Zorana (11:59.614)
you cannot live up to that, then of course you’re not going to attach that word to yourself. But another thing how we think erroneously about creative confidence is that it’s an either or thing. You either have confidence and therefore you do creative things, or you don’t have confidence and therefore you’re not really the creative type. But it is not an either or thing. It is something that develops through time.
Zorana (12:29.062)
It is something that ebbs and flows in the course of our work, in the course even of a single project. You are starting something new and it is something new, hasn’t been done before, therefore you cannot quite be sure how it’s going to go. Well, you have doubts, but as you make progress, it changes and now you have more confidence.
Zorana (12:56.66)
But if you don’t take that initial plunge, that initial choice, okay, I’m going to try to do this, you are never going to develop the confidence and grow in it. So it’s kind of a catch 22 little bit.
Ryan Goulart (13:11.394)
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. it’s, oftentimes there’s a few things that are running through my head right now in relations to that. And I’m gonna thankfully jot it down so I don’t forget them. But one of the things that, you know, as we kind of play with this idea bit more, and again, like for all the listeners that have had that idea and either did or did not.
Ryan Goulart (13:36.844)
just take that first step that you’re talking about. so I’m going to just provide you some context. We’re going to go back into, you know, let’s go 30 years ago. I had this idea, Serrano, that I lived in a small town in Northern Connecticut and I wanted to make maple syrup. Of all things. I mean, so.
Ryan Goulart (14:04.734)
And one of the things that was really interesting about this idea is that I went and researched it. I found different providers. Now, my problem at the time, and one could attest that this is still a problem for Ryan right now, is that I sometimes lack reality testing. So I will think big without having my feet on the ground. So as this little six-year-old, seven-year-old was researching various ideas of
Ryan Goulart (14:33.9)
how to make maple syrup, what do I need, how do I tap trees, how do I boil the sap to make syrup. And it was just such a creative process. But one of the things that I soon realized was that I didn’t have the patience for it.
Ryan Goulart (14:57.986)
Because it’s really, it takes a long time. And when I was researching all of this, was about towards the end of the season. And I was actually going to have to come back through the next season, which is usually February. I still remember all of this. It was, in February for Connecticut season. So like, I think one of the things that you present so well in your book is one that creative creativity is a choice and it’s not a one and done.
Ryan Goulart (15:27.198)
So it is not a choice that because I made the first step of deciding that I wanted to pursue this idea, that I have to actually make that decision every single day, probably. What have you seen in the research? have you, what that story as a backdrop? mean, it has to be something that.
Zorana (15:45.47)
Yes.
Ryan Goulart (15:55.614)
And you like some other words that come into mind are like internal motivation, external motivation. How do you keep yourself going with an idea when, whether it’s due to my own internal conversation with myself, I don’t want to wait. don’t want to, I don’t want to, I don’t want to delay gratification. How, how do you like, there’s so much, there’s so much emotion tied to doing what
Ryan Goulart (16:23.466)
must be done to be able to achieve the thing that I want to do. I threw a lot at you in that story and I threw a lot after you in these questions, but like, what are you, what are some initial thoughts?
Zorana (16:33.184)
You did throw a lot, but let’s take it apart.
Zorana (16:39.467)
And so where you started is a really great observation. It’s the title of a book is the creativity choice because I wanted to catch people and think of what do you mean by that? But then I want them to ask more questions.
Zorana (17:02.404)
and exactly the kinds of questions that you are asking here. It is not the choice. It is not one choice. Sure, you start with the first choice, but that’s not enough. So you have made that first choice with the example of making maple syrup and you went to research it. That is the first choice, but it’s not enough to stop there.
Zorana (17:29.888)
you now have to continue making the choice, continue figuring out the process and then committing and recommitting to it, although it takes time, although there are going to be some inconveniences, like it occurred to you to do it at the end of the season and now you have to wait for the next season, totally inconvenient. And you have to somehow…
Zorana (17:58.802)
stay motivated, stay with that particular thing and not all the other ideas that you have. And sometimes it is worth staying with it and sometimes it is not. I am not saying creativity is about grit. You have an idea and you just stick with it and never waver from it whatsoever, never change it. It is the thing and you just have to stay the course. I’m not saying that at all.
Zorana (18:28.544)
Sometimes reality of various sorts can kick in and you decide that this idea is not going to work. And at that point, there’s no point in pursuing it anymore for whatever reason that might be. The art is figuring out when this idea is not worth pursuing and at which points you have to pursue it.
Zorana (18:56.923)
in spite of the difficulties or bumps in the road or unpleasant bits and pieces, which is that emotional roller coaster that you mentioned.
Ryan Goulart (19:07.754)
Yeah, you know, in our conversations back when you and I first met, we talked about courage, which courage suggests that, which you outline in your book, that there are risks associated with pursuing a creative choice. Tell us a little bit about, you know, that balance between the risks that are associated with creativity.
Zorana (19:28.533)
Yeah.
Ryan Goulart (19:37.346)
And also the courage that one needs to continue with what you’re talking about. Not so much like, gonna white knuckle all the way through because I have this idea. That’s not what we’re suggesting. the courage that one might need to, I have this idea, I want to pursue it. It is something that is meaningful for me. Courage is important about a component of that. Tell us more.
Zorana (20:40.768)
Can we hear you now?
Ryan Goulart (21:02.103)
Zahra, we were talking about… I say that differently.
Ryan Goulart (21:08.343)
When it comes to creativity, we know that courage plays a significant role in that. Tell us a little bit about how we can use courage to take that first step and the next step after that.
Zorana (21:24.36)
The idea of courage, I have seen defined and best defined as doing something not because you are not uncomfortable or because you’re not afraid, but in spite of it. So we are not here talking about physical bravery. We are talking that psychological kind. And what creative work requires is for us to take
Zorana (21:53.948)
a risk and we are taking different kinds of risk. are taking intellectual risk. Are we ultimately able to rise to the occasion and to think and problem solve and build those things that need to be built to make our ideal into reality?
Zorana (22:17.684)
So that is one risk we are taking and we cannot be sure because we are doing something new and original and so there is no roadmap and there is no certainty. And the other kind of risk is reputational risk or social risk. It is all of those things that can come through our mind of how other people are going to react. Are they going to think our ideas are silly?
Zorana (22:44.82)
Are they going to think that we are challenging them, challenging their authority or our place in some kind of hierarchy? Are we going to anger somebody? Are those things worth it? And as we are making that decision, we are weighing these risks. And these risks are real. This is not to say…
Zorana (23:09.128)
be a natural born risk taker. You don’t even have to be a natural born risk taker to do creative work, but you do have to have that courage or the tolerance of these risks so that you are willing to do which might not be comfortable or where you might have some doubts.
Ryan Goulart (23:40.861)
It’s fascinating to me to kind of think about that piece because mean, courage is such a component of it. Confidence, like you were articulating, is such a big component of it. So what are some things that, like let’s say listeners here have had that idea, maybe they want to start a restaurant or they want to pursue art or they want to finally launch that side business that they’ve been thinking about. What are some steps?
Ryan Goulart (24:10.647)
that one can do to kind of manage that emotional roller coaster that we’ve set up. We’ve climbed to the top, we’re on the roller coaster now, and we’re about to experience the drop. How do we deal with the emotion of pursuing this creative idea and this choice?
Zorana (24:29.3)
Zorana (24:31.621)
You are touching on something that we don’t really talk about enough in discussing creativity. We usually talk about creativity as thinking, as problem solving, thinking outside the box. And that’s certainly important, but it’s only going to take us so far if we don’t deal with this more emotional component because the way to
Zorana (24:59.326)
those ideas realized is oftentimes long. And they’re going to times when we are going to encounter obstacles and if we are encountering the obstacles, we’ll be frustrated. So what do we do then? And what we need there is when emotions become overwhelming to get in our way,
Zorana (25:27.464)
sometimes even in the form of a creative block, when we don’t seem to be making progress, it’s not because we are not capable, but because it’s just not coming. and, in those times we have to, regulate our emotions, manage our emotions, sort of be the managers of what we are experiencing. and, that
Zorana (25:55.46)
That oftentimes seems counterintuitive to people because emotions seem so automatic in our experience. The idea that we have agency, we can do something about them seems rather surprising, but there is a lot we can do to take the edge off. That’s not mean we are going to be doubt free, that we are going to be magically happy and satisfied at all times.
Zorana (26:25.03)
It means that we just take enough of the edge off to be able to approach the problems and continue making progress.
Ryan Goulart (26:37.239)
Yeah, what you’re articulating, and I think that’s oftentimes what’s lacking in many of the story that we anchor on when it comes to some of those famous people. mean, yeah, of course we’ve heard about like Van Gogh cutting off his ear and all that stuff, but like the actual like emotional pain that one experiences on this journey is often overlooked.
Ryan Goulart (27:02.633)
And it’s also, and maybe this, I’ll say it in the form of a question. Now, do you think that that emotional transference is oftentimes the part that’s missing in no matter how many books you go read or how many stories you listen to or how many movies that you see of these famous people overcoming obstacles? I mean, it’s that emotional component that is the one that gets in the way.
Ryan Goulart (27:31.939)
I mean, would that be fair to say?
Zorana (27:34.97)
Sometimes it gets in the way for sure, but sometimes it’s also the strength and we can use the power of emotions to our advantage. And because in our general discourse, we talk so much about emotions getting in the way and that is oftentimes true. Sometimes it does happen that we overlook this part of emotions being an asset.
Zorana (28:04.532)
and something that can benefit the creative process in itself in many different ways. think of, you mentioned famous artists, they oftentimes express their emotions through their art and communicated that emotions, way of communicating and expressing who they are. But artists are not the only ones who do this, who
Zorana (28:33.908)
use emotions as inspiration. I love the story of the founder of Instacart and he tells so vividly how much he hated the grocery shopping experience and he goes on in vivid detail of he hated where things are on the shelves and how
Zorana (28:58.42)
they keep changing where different items are and what the checkout experience is like and what are all those tempting items by the checkout line. And he can very vividly tell you all the reasons he hates the grocery shopping experience. And he used this, this taste, he used this frustration as, hey, this is a problem.
Zorana (29:23.808)
And this frustration that I’m experiencing, sure, it’s something that I could ignore. Sure, it is something that I could just make myself feel better, but it is also telling me something that this is not probably only my experience. This is an opportunity. It’s a problem that could be solved. And he solved it. He said, point of frustration,
Zorana (29:52.294)
is also point of inspiration and he started Instacart that solved this problem for many people. So we can use and harness the power of our emotions in that way and we can also harness the power of emotions to make us more productive and better able in tasks that have to be done. So to give you an example, this seems a little bit abstract.
Zorana (30:20.85)
different feelings are making us better at different kinds of thinking. So we are all aware of this when we are feeling more optimistic, we see the world with rose colored glasses, we expect good things to happen, we see evidence of good things in the world. And the opposite is true when we are feeling more pessimistic, we see…
Zorana (30:47.196)
the problems and we see the difficulties about something. And other emotions have different ways of thinking that they can support. So when we are feeling happy, positive, energized moods, we are better able to thinking in broad ways and being playful and silly, which is really good for brainstorming those quick bursts of
Zorana (31:15.87)
coming up with ideas. But when we are feeling maybe grumpy or down, we can see all the problems. And now both of those are necessary at different parts in the creative process. So I personally use this power of emotions to benefit different kinds of thinking to my advantage.
Zorana (31:45.616)
I am not a morning person, so I get up in the morning, I am not in a good mood, I see all the things that are wrong with the world, but I can use that and I can say, okay, which of my tasks for the day could benefit from me seeing potential problems? So I read and revise what I have written previously and find ways of improving my work.
Zorana (32:14.376)
So you see, they are these properties of emotions that can help us in different parts of the creative process. They are not just in our way.
Ryan Goulart (32:24.259)
Love that answer. And I think it’s very insightful too that one could also think about certain times. You can almost reframe your position depending on the task that you have by thinking about times when you’re happy or times when you’re sad or grumpy or what have you to kind of influence your actions. So that’s very cool. When you think about…
Zorana (32:48.18)
Mm-hmm.
Ryan Goulart (32:54.071)
know, the, creative process and these tools of like being able to kind of put ourselves in the emotional state that we need to be. What are you, and we also know that we don’t achieve things without other people. How do we enlist other people, that social component of creativity to help us along the way?
Zorana (33:19.948)
in different ways, creativity is social even when it doesn’t seem to be. imagine the most solitary creative activity. I just wrote a book and I was the only one writing it. So it sounds like a solitary activity. So it seems like it’s not social, right? It’s not that I was collaborating with somebody.
Zorana (33:48.456)
But collaboration is not the only way that creativity can be social. They are influences from other people, those people whose research I have read, those creators who I interviewed, who have influenced my thinking and who have shaped these ideas that I’m sharing in direct or indirect ways. And you know, sometimes
Zorana (34:17.876)
we, we watch the Oscars and we, watch those very long list of thank yous. and we can chuckle a little bit, but it’s also true that, yes, other people help us gain ideas, get different perspectives, even develop our ideas. But also there is that element of support.
Zorana (34:46.44)
and making it possible for us to do certain work. All of those things are social influences on our creative work and in organizations at our work, they are even institutionalized social influences in forms of our coworkers, our team members, our team leaders and
Zorana (35:15.684)
senior leaders in organizations who all have an influence on what our experience is and what we are ultimately able to do.
Ryan Goulart (35:29.409)
Yeah, it’s always surprising to me. And it shouldn’t be that all of this does play a role in how one can interact in the world. Spending a little time on the future, because I think that’s just fun sometimes. And I’m sure, Zorano, you’ve been asked this question. I know it came up in the conference that you and I were at, but the creative choice
Ryan Goulart (35:59.375)
And the term creativity, you know, there’s been recent headlines going back even a couple years now of the advent of technology, performing human tasks like creativity. How, how are, what are, what’s your position on creativity in the world of artificial intelligence and how that plays a role in turning these ideas that we have into action?
Zorana (36:29.14)
I love this question and I have really thought about it in a very focused way. It is unknown where artificial intelligence is going to go and what it will be able to do sometime from now and within our lifetimes. It’s always good to have
Zorana (36:56.304)
a longer term perspective and little bit of humility that we don’t necessarily know where something is going. But if we say, where are we now and where are we likely to be in some realistically imaginable future, I am not worried about human creativity. And I deeply believe that…
Zorana (37:23.784)
the artificial intelligence tools will be able to augment human creativity and will become tools that can be used to make us do more and make us do things more effectively and not replace human creativity. In terms of thinking of it as tool, I always am reminded of other technological advancements historically.
Zorana (37:52.812)
And some 150 years ago when photography was first being introduced, there was a lot of writing that this is going to be the end of painting, that there won’t be any more visual art because photography will completely make it obsolete. And you know what? That did not happen.
Zorana (38:21.246)
Quite to the contrary, photography became its own art form and they were innovations in traditional painting. They were new painting movements and this prediction did not come to be. And I think it’s going to be similar to artificial intelligence.
Zorana (38:48.89)
Specifically, there is one thing that people somewhat erroneously associate creativity with, and that is problem solving. It’s having a concrete problem, you have to find a solution. And there, artificial intelligence right now can really do a lot. But…
Zorana (39:18.116)
Scientists who study creativity have this insight that creativity is not primarily about problem solving. It is about what scientists call problem finding. And that is asking questions. That is asking questions in different ways, framing it in different ways, exploring it from different angles.
Zorana (39:45.544)
And at this time and in foreseeable future, artificial intelligence cannot do that part. It can give us answers to questions we formulate. And then there is prompt engineering of asking questions in exact ways that are going to give us best answers. That is part of human task in working with artificial intelligence and part of this problem finding.
Zorana (40:14.26)
So I am not really worried of artificial intelligence taking the human creativity away. I think it’s going to be rather the contrary of it, augmenting it.
Ryan Goulart (40:32.041)
That’s an awesome answer. I love that problem finding skill set. It definitely plays a role too in not only just the second part of that statement, finding things. I mean, I think that’s just that pursuit of ideation, pursuit of creativity that makes this all so fun. you know, one, I know we’re coming up here on time. Serana, thank you so much for spending some time with me.
Ryan Goulart (41:00.035)
Talking about this idea, the creativity choice, the science of making decisions to turn ideas into action. Book comes out soon, so definitely go get your copy. Thank you again, Serana, for coming on.
Zorana (41:14.376)
Thank you very much for having me, Ryan.
